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	<title>Comments on: CONTENTION OF THE DAY</title>
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	<link>http://ckmac.com/thewholething/2009/08/14/contention-of-the-day-8/</link>
	<description>inferis blogere quam dissimulari cœli</description>
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		<title>By: Peter Shalen</title>
		<link>http://ckmac.com/thewholething/2009/08/14/contention-of-the-day-8/#comment-4138</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter Shalen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Aug 2009 15:18:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ckmac.com/thewholething/?p=2354#comment-4138</guid>
		<description>&lt;Blockquote&gt;the most likely outcome, or so it is now argued,&lt;/Blockquote&gt;
In cases like this the passive voice is used to convey a certain vagueness concerning the identity of the people by whom the arguing is being done. This is no doubt intended by the author.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>the most likely outcome, or so it is now argued,</p></blockquote>
<p>In cases like this the passive voice is used to convey a certain vagueness concerning the identity of the people by whom the arguing is being done. This is no doubt intended by the author.</p>
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		<title>By: fuster</title>
		<link>http://ckmac.com/thewholething/2009/08/14/contention-of-the-day-8/#comment-4112</link>
		<dc:creator>fuster</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Aug 2009 05:23:48 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I like the way you&#039;re thinking here, CK.

I&#039;m just going to keep on saying what I&#039;ve been telling JED for months. The Iranian regime is doing a fine job of screwing itself up.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like the way you&#8217;re thinking here, CK.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m just going to keep on saying what I&#8217;ve been telling JED for months. The Iranian regime is doing a fine job of screwing itself up.</p>
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		<title>By: CK MacLeod</title>
		<link>http://ckmac.com/thewholething/2009/08/14/contention-of-the-day-8/#comment-4110</link>
		<dc:creator>CK MacLeod</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Aug 2009 04:57:52 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Except that until the day they demonstrate a working weapons capacity, their capacity will always be a matter of dispute, and to some extent even then will continue to be.  That&#039;s a formula for always being too late to start looking at alternatives.  

I say this as something of a dissenter on the evilmongering right, since I&#039;ve long wondered whether there was a real world scenario, short of a major conflict started by someone else, under which the U.S. could and would act decisively. Meanwhile, JED&#039;s analysis tended to reinforce my belief that what Israel seemed likely to achieve on its own in a unilateral action might not justify the political cost.  

However, many of the terms in the discussion change over time.  What seemed impossible for us to contemplate a year ago may not, depending on intervening events, seem so a year from now.  Iran&#039;s at a milestone point, but is still likely years away from having usable weapons.  

There&#039;s some doubt among experts about the real weapons capacities of countries at similar or more advanced stages of technological development like Pakistan, India, and North Korea.  The duds and misfires that the Norks have had aren&#039;t unusual from the history of nukes.  It took the French several tries to get the missle tech right. 

So we might boiling this frog in one way or another for a decade if not decades.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Except that until the day they demonstrate a working weapons capacity, their capacity will always be a matter of dispute, and to some extent even then will continue to be.  That&#8217;s a formula for always being too late to start looking at alternatives.  </p>
<p>I say this as something of a dissenter on the evilmongering right, since I&#8217;ve long wondered whether there was a real world scenario, short of a major conflict started by someone else, under which the U.S. could and would act decisively. Meanwhile, JED&#8217;s analysis tended to reinforce my belief that what Israel seemed likely to achieve on its own in a unilateral action might not justify the political cost.  </p>
<p>However, many of the terms in the discussion change over time.  What seemed impossible for us to contemplate a year ago may not, depending on intervening events, seem so a year from now.  Iran&#8217;s at a milestone point, but is still likely years away from having usable weapons.  </p>
<p>There&#8217;s some doubt among experts about the real weapons capacities of countries at similar or more advanced stages of technological development like Pakistan, India, and North Korea.  The duds and misfires that the Norks have had aren&#8217;t unusual from the history of nukes.  It took the French several tries to get the missle tech right. </p>
<p>So we might boiling this frog in one way or another for a decade if not decades.</p>
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		<title>By: fuster</title>
		<link>http://ckmac.com/thewholething/2009/08/14/contention-of-the-day-8/#comment-4105</link>
		<dc:creator>fuster</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Aug 2009 04:21:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ckmac.com/thewholething/?p=2354#comment-4105</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&#039;#comment-4104&#039; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;@CK MacLeod&lt;/a&gt; - On balance, it does. I don&#039;t think I was attempting to say otherwise.
Overall, it&#039;s hard to see how anything other than regime change can force the Iranians not to produce a bomb if they&#039;re determined to go ahead.
Our job now is to find out if they can be deterred. If they don&#039;t show up to sit down and aren&#039;t open to bargaining away the program, we start looking at alternatives.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href='#comment-4104' rel="nofollow">@CK MacLeod</a> &#8211; On balance, it does. I don&#8217;t think I was attempting to say otherwise.<br />
Overall, it&#8217;s hard to see how anything other than regime change can force the Iranians not to produce a bomb if they&#8217;re determined to go ahead.<br />
Our job now is to find out if they can be deterred. If they don&#8217;t show up to sit down and aren&#8217;t open to bargaining away the program, we start looking at alternatives.</p>
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		<title>By: CK MacLeod</title>
		<link>http://ckmac.com/thewholething/2009/08/14/contention-of-the-day-8/#comment-4104</link>
		<dc:creator>CK MacLeod</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Aug 2009 04:11:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ckmac.com/thewholething/?p=2354#comment-4104</guid>
		<description>fuster, the article you link tends more to reinforce Coughlin&#039;s points, I think, than to rebut them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>fuster, the article you link tends more to reinforce Coughlin&#8217;s points, I think, than to rebut them.</p>
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		<title>By: fuster</title>
		<link>http://ckmac.com/thewholething/2009/08/14/contention-of-the-day-8/#comment-4102</link>
		<dc:creator>fuster</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Aug 2009 04:07:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ckmac.com/thewholething/?p=2354#comment-4102</guid>
		<description>In case anyone is interested on what other people think.

http://archive.gulfnews.com/region/Iran/10333853.html

We also think that we have a couple of years before it happens.

http://www.televisionwashington.com/floater_article1.aspx?lang=en&amp;t=3&amp;id=12915</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In case anyone is interested on what other people think.</p>
<p><a href="http://archive.gulfnews.com/region/Iran/10333853.html" rel="nofollow">http://archive.gulfnews.com/region/Iran/10333853.html</a></p>
<p>We also think that we have a couple of years before it happens.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.televisionwashington.com/floater_article1.aspx?lang=en&#038;t=3&#038;id=12915" rel="nofollow">http://www.televisionwashington.com/floater_article1.aspx?lang=en&#038;t=3&#038;id=12915</a></p>
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		<title>By: CK MacLeod</title>
		<link>http://ckmac.com/thewholething/2009/08/14/contention-of-the-day-8/#comment-4092</link>
		<dc:creator>CK MacLeod</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Aug 2009 02:47:47 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Hard to say, aelfheld:  &#216; himself may not have really known what he thought or expected, and might not be able to say when the willingness to accept a nuclear Iran turned into resignation and defeatism not just about Iran itself but about the political fallout.  

It&#039;s hard to see any domestic political advantage to the Obamanauts in a nuclear Iran, and in a complete rebuff of the &quot;unclenched fist&quot; policy.  Before the Iranian election, I think that at least some in the WH thought there was a chance that Iran would give them a superficial political victory - see it in their interests - that could be portrayed, truthfully or not, as a step toward a Grand Bargain.  

There are too many unknowns.  Anyway, I thought that the interestingly contentious part of the piece wasn&#039;t in its observations on the US and others re Iran, but in the notion that the betting now favors a &quot;polynuclear&quot; ME.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hard to say, aelfheld:  &Oslash; himself may not have really known what he thought or expected, and might not be able to say when the willingness to accept a nuclear Iran turned into resignation and defeatism not just about Iran itself but about the political fallout.  </p>
<p>It&#8217;s hard to see any domestic political advantage to the Obamanauts in a nuclear Iran, and in a complete rebuff of the &#8220;unclenched fist&#8221; policy.  Before the Iranian election, I think that at least some in the WH thought there was a chance that Iran would give them a superficial political victory &#8211; see it in their interests &#8211; that could be portrayed, truthfully or not, as a step toward a Grand Bargain.  </p>
<p>There are too many unknowns.  Anyway, I thought that the interestingly contentious part of the piece wasn&#8217;t in its observations on the US and others re Iran, but in the notion that the betting now favors a &#8220;polynuclear&#8221; ME.</p>
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		<title>By: aelfheld</title>
		<link>http://ckmac.com/thewholething/2009/08/14/contention-of-the-day-8/#comment-4067</link>
		<dc:creator>aelfheld</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Aug 2009 00:34:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://ckmac.com/thewholething/?p=2354#comment-4067</guid>
		<description>&lt;Blockquote&gt;…[A] mood of defeatism appears to have settled over the White House.&lt;/Blockquote&gt;
Well, that&#039;s the most misleading sentence I&#039;ve run across in days.

I started off thinking that, finally, the Jøker had clued in to the fact that the American people don&#039;t want the IRS in charge of their health care.

Instead I&#039;m treated to a farrago of nonsense about how the Jøker and his clown-car refugees are &#039;resigned&#039; to a nuclear Iran.

&lt;Em&gt;[Expletive deleted].&lt;/Em&gt;

The Democrat party, including the then junior senator from Illinois, did everything within its power to stymie the (admittedly less than all-out) Bush administration&#039;s efforts to build a coalition with which to pressure Iran (not something likely to have succeeded in the immediate term, but it would have provided a base from which to build a firm opposition).  

There is no evidence besides their public pronouncements (sound and fury signifying nothing) that this pack of crooks and liars has any problem with Iran nuclearising.

As with anything associated with the Jøker, ignore the speechifying and pay attention to the associations.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>…[A] mood of defeatism appears to have settled over the White House.</p></blockquote>
<p>Well, that&#8217;s the most misleading sentence I&#8217;ve run across in days.</p>
<p>I started off thinking that, finally, the Jøker had clued in to the fact that the American people don&#8217;t want the IRS in charge of their health care.</p>
<p>Instead I&#8217;m treated to a farrago of nonsense about how the Jøker and his clown-car refugees are &#8216;resigned&#8217; to a nuclear Iran.</p>
<p><em>[Expletive deleted].</em></p>
<p>The Democrat party, including the then junior senator from Illinois, did everything within its power to stymie the (admittedly less than all-out) Bush administration&#8217;s efforts to build a coalition with which to pressure Iran (not something likely to have succeeded in the immediate term, but it would have provided a base from which to build a firm opposition).  </p>
<p>There is no evidence besides their public pronouncements (sound and fury signifying nothing) that this pack of crooks and liars has any problem with Iran nuclearising.</p>
<p>As with anything associated with the Jøker, ignore the speechifying and pay attention to the associations.</p>
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